Insane in the big brain, insane in the brain - with Dr. Jackson Njau
Welcome to Earth on the Rocks. I'm your host, Shelby Rader. And joining me today is doctor Jackson Njau. Jackson, welcome.
Jackson:Thank you very much, Shelby.
Shelby:So, Jackson, we're gonna get to know you over the course of this episode as if we were having drinks. So what would be your drink of choice today?
Jackson:My drink of choice, will be I love beer. And by saying beer, I almost I love the lager beer. Of any kind. In most cases, since we're in Bloomington, I will drink any kind of lager beer, like, whether it's from the, the Upland Brewery or another, Michelob Ultra. That's my favorite because I can take more of those.
Shelby:I feel like Michelob is a very good summer beer. Whenever I've been in the yard working, I also enjoy a lot beer like that.
Jackson:Yeah. I love that too.
Shelby:So, you are also in the department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences here. And so if someone were to ask you what sort of scientist you are, how would you classify yourself?
Jackson:Yeah. I'll classify myself as paleoanthropologist. I have a training in, biological anthropology. And by definition, paleoanthropology, I'm interested in the study of early humans. Early humans, talk about probably, going back as far as 5000000 years ago.
Jackson:So it places around the Pliocene, Pleistocene, that's where you find a lot of, early human fossils.
Shelby:I think for some people that are probably listening to this, hearing a number that old for the first humans probably is a little surprising, right, that we sort of go back that far. Have you encountered that with people when you tell them, oh, I work in paleoanthropology, and I'm thinking of things on the order of 1000000 of years?
Jackson:Yeah. That's a good question because a lot of people when we talk about early humans, they think about Neanderthals, which their fossils are found in Europe. But, the fossils I'm talking about of early humans come from, this could come from Africa. And most cases, you find this along the rift valley system. Because this system wants, its earth, it's opening up, and then it bring some of the old sediments above so for us to see on the surface.
Jackson:So that is the area which is very, very good for exploring these remains of early humans.
Shelby:And whenever you're talking about sort of doing this paleoanthropological work, what are some of the questions you're trying to answer with things that you're working on now? What are you sort of interested in scientifically when it comes to that?
Jackson:One of the major questions for most paleontologist is, the very, very simple question. When, do we, especially our ancestors, emerge on earth for the first time, and how did they evolve? You know, they walk on this journey for millions of years until today, and why, how did they do that, and where do we find this kind of evidence? So those are the kind of, major question we ask. And as a paleanthropologist then, we have different subdisciplines which everyone is tasked to do in order to to answer these major questions.
Jackson:Some of them, they do archaeology, like the evolution of the technology. Others trying to understand if we can get the the ancient genetics to see the relationship between different type of these early human creatures, and others just do the morphology, seeing how these early humans evolved from a small brain case to, the large brain which we have today. Others look at the morphology of the hands. Some of them, they before they have hands, which look like most of the primates, but now have a very, very abled hands who can manipulate things, who can make tools, who can make anything, or we can use computers all the way to iPhones. And so, we we do different kind of things.
Jackson:And my real interest within this, field of paleoanthropology is to understand what kind of drivers made these guys you know, why there was a necessity for these early humans to evolve from one species to another. For example, from Homo habilis to Homo erectus to Homo neander. What was the driving force behind that? And I've been looking about things like predation risks from predators, probably predators avoiding those kind of predators, which they shared the same landscape. Probably they had to make them to evolve large brain to plan their routes, to plan how, you know to better move around
Shelby:evade these these predators.
Jackson:Yeah. It's like avoidance strategy right. To avoid them. So that probably requires more cognition or cognitive capability for them to start evolving this kind of morphology, which is a larger brain.
Shelby:Yeah. And so you you mentioned, you know, predators, and I think when we hear that now, there would be a handful of predators that we as humans would have to sort of evade. But I'm imagining that 5000000 years ago, predators may look quite different. Is that is that accurate? What were some of the predators at that time that you feel like folks may have been trying to evolve to escape?
Jackson:Oh, yeah. It's true. Just like we were different at that time, also, predators are also different. We have some of the predators which are extinct now, including the families of lions, the families of this very, very powerful crocuta hyenas, powerful jaws, kind of tiger like, saber tooth cuts, kind of dogs. You know?
Jackson:So they're all there, and this kind of predators, they're not alone, which will cause risk to all humans. There are other animals too there on the landscape which are larger, you know, and dangerous, like elephants, buffalo, hippo, rhino. All of those will have posed a lot of threat to these ill humans and thought mentioning, you know, other things like snakes too. So these guys were under a lot of pressure on the landscapes comparing today. Today, we can protect ourselves with guns, with spears, with bow and arrows, and can climb trees and things like that.
Jackson:So those are the other creatures which were competing with hominids on the landscape.
Shelby:And were they some of these things you mentioned, you know, we have equivalents of today, were they similar sizes? Were they larger, smaller? Were they pretty much the same, or was there a lot of variation in some of those?
Jackson:Yeah. So just to give you a comparison, if we look at these early human creatures too, for example, Homo habilis, who lived about 2,500,000 years ago, was very small guy. It's about 3 feet tall. Small tiny brain. Right?
Jackson:And no tools. They're very, very simple pebble tool like flakes. So you can see they are very, very you know, in terms of biological capability, they're inferior. In terms of running, they could not outrun, you know, the fast running predators, things like that. And some of the predators also, some of them were large, very, very large, but they're now extinct.
Jackson:They just disappeared a couple of, you know, like a 1000000 of years ago. So you can see that the environment were changing, hominids were changing, and probably this change also biological change of early humans, which was a response to this kind of, you know, predation risk and, you know, threat from the other animals that are sharing the same landscape.
Shelby:Right. So how do we better protect ourselves since they end up getting larger, developing a larger brain so they could make more sophisticated tools, maybe outrun some of these predators a little more efficiently? Is that sort of the idea?
Jackson:Yeah. Exactly right. Because other creatures evolve different mechanisms. Some of them, they evolve some sensory organs, like they have to see better or smell better or run, you know, modifying their mobility, you know, capability. For human, what we detect most is enlargement of brain size.
Jackson:And to the point now, we reached about 40000 years ago or even longer, about 200,000 in terms of, fossil record, we are seeing early humans reaching the cranium size, which we attend today, about 1400 cc in terms of volumes. So that we are the only creature now with the largest brain size, in proportion to our body size.
Shelby:Interesting. And is it safe to assume that we will continue to sort of evolve in this way where we should expect a hundred thousand years from now, have people with much larger brains?
Jackson:Probably it's the brain are gonna go smaller because now we are dependent on AI.
Shelby:We're gonna see a a a backwash. Yeah.
Jackson:Yeah. We have we're gonna go backward because we don't need, for example, in terms of fossil record. Let's use our teeth. Our teeth, in terms of cheek teeth are much smaller comparing to our ancestors, and they become smaller because we're starting to use tools. So we have been assisted by stone tools, cutting, reducing the food item, and also cooking.
Jackson:When it started the invention of cooking about 2000000 years ago, then our teeth started becoming they didn't increase. They become smaller comparing to, let's say, Australopithecines. And so that is evidence. That's kind of, scientific evidence we find in the geological deposits. Okay.
Jackson:The small teeth comparing to large teeth back then, and the small teeth on side with appearance of the first tools, the stone tools, or appearance of fire. So and then so they all have effect on biological modification of ourselves.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:Yeah.
Shelby:So you've mentioned sort of lines of evidence for these sorts of observations, and so I'm assuming fossils provide a really great line of evidence, things like stone tools.
Jackson:Mhmm.
Shelby:You had mentioned fire. I'm curious what does fire look like in terms of evidence in the geologic record? What do you try to identify to see? Oh, yes. This is when fire was developed or started to be used more widely.
Jackson:Yeah. Now, there could have been, wildfire back then, probably lightning and you know? And these hominids were living in a very arid, environment, savanna environments, grass, sometimes could have been, you know, these wildfires. But the fire we're talking about, it's a controlled controlled use of fire where you see evidence of, like, you know, a cooking place, like a hearth and ashes, with the high intensity of temperature. And people are doing this, work at people like you, you know, geochemists, and the one who are detecting this and testing.
Jackson:Okay. This was, you know, it's a fire which it's not a bushfire. It's, it's a controlled fire and probably has been used. You have multiple layers, maybe used over and over and over. And good places, we find this, like in the caves.
Jackson:Like in Neanderthals, you can have you really see that because, you know, the cave is good for them to maintain, control this fire.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:But in the wide landscape, you know, savanna environment, sometimes you cannot detect that. However, now there's again, there's a lot of geochemistry used in our field. Folks are doing their biomarkers, you know, so they can find the traces, all these, proxies of fire in terms just looking the sediments, look at the temperature, the Taylor temperature, you know Right. Proxy. So that folks now have been able to do this, in the labs.
Shelby:Yeah. It's very impressive that this is something that can be done, and I think it's a really fun way to take what typically are very 2 very different fields and start to combine them in in a really useful way. Oh,
Jackson:yeah. And that's why, our field, it's usually it's marked at the spinary. And it's folks from from, you know, geochemist. Oh, yeah. You guys this look like this.
Jackson:I said, oh, really? Yeah. And then we look at the archaeological materials. Oh, yeah. We see some of the tools have been like traces of fire or burnt or chuck, you know, bones which have been burnt, and folks can start looking at those in the microscopes.
Jackson:Yeah. Yeah.
Shelby:And so whenever we think about you know, you mentioned there's evidence up to 5000000 years ago of early humans, and we've seen sort of periods of evolution that we can track based on, like, sizes of brains and craniums and and hand morphology
Jackson:Teeth. Yeah.
Shelby:Teeth. Mhmm. How quickly are we evolving during this time? Is this something that happens very slowly? Is this something that happens more quickly?
Shelby:Is this something that just depends on a whole bunch of outside factors?
Jackson:Yeah. So as I said again, this evolution probably is mainly, as a response to external factors. Either could be environmental factors, ecological factors, or other ecological pressures, as I said, predation risk. Right? So you need, you know, because otherwise, there's no need of modifying yourself to something else or strengthening your bones if you don't use them much or enlarging your teeth if you don't chew too much.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:Right? So there must be a kind of a pressure. Now for one of the biggest question today is a lot of people, they want to know if are we evolving. And you can see those kind of, a lot of people are not comfortable talking about evolution. It's because, you know, there's a intersection between, you know, religion and also science and evolution and so forth.
Jackson:But we're talking in terms of years. Now, as I said, if you are looking the brain size and our own morphology, more than human morphology, the oldest evidence goes back to about 200,000. That will be the oldest. And in terms of fossils, we have, only one fossil for Morocco in Africa, a single specimen, which date about 300,000. However, in terms of archaeological material, which suggest the beginning of our own species, which means Homo sapiens, is about 200,000.
Jackson:So there are multiple evidences from different sites, especially in Africa, suggesting that we reach that, you know, new species of Homo sapiens about that time.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:K? So that is 200,000. Alright?
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:Now if you go back to a 1000000 years from now, we have Homo sapiens predecessors like Homo erectus. The oldest record is about 1 point maybe 8 or 7.
Shelby:1000000.
Jackson:1000000. Right? And and these guys, they existed all the way to about 300,000 years ago. So those are the ones who survived for the longest. Very resilient.
Jackson:So they were resilient. They were successful for the longest period of time. Now the predecessor the oldest record is about 2.8. 2.8 to 1.8. So they survived for 1,000,000.
Jackson:So no erectus is more than 1,000,000. And for our species now is only 0.2. 1,000. Yeah. Now the Neanderthals probably also also the the same story.
Jackson:Neanderthals probably the oldest record is about, 400,000, maybe 300,000, overlapping with Homo erectus. And then but out of the picture before 50,000 years ago. So we I think we live the shortest. You know? We're still going on there.
Shelby:We don't
Jackson:know, but we we don't have any record. And, of course, anthropologist, medical, you know, people in medical field, anatomist will have seen some changes there. Yeah. Of of course, one teeth are very, very important, in terms of evidence, psychological evidence because they survive, in terms of preservation more than bones. Right?
Jackson:Because it's kind of a mineralized teeth. So, people, they they they notice how this, depending where you are, probably it's genetic controlled, that the wisdom a lot of people, they don't have a space in their tire, to accommodate the wisdom teeth. Right. Okay? So why is that?
Jackson:Because in terms of evolution, all the primates will have the same dental formula. Twin sizes, you know, 1 canine, 2 premolars, you know, 3rd and 4th, we lost 12, and 3 molars, like all good primates. Right? But some of us now are starting to
Shelby:We don't need those.
Jackson:Yeah. We don't need those. Yeah. We are using fork and knife Yeah. On the table.
Jackson:And before we eat, also we cook and also we refine this food and the more and you can see people that want even more softer food than tough, you know, tough food.
Shelby:Yeah. Yeah. K. A sort of geochemical aspect of that or sort of related to that is is we can even track for more modern bone specimens, people's diets and where they live geographically based on how some of those things formed and and changed over their lifespan. And so thinking of it in a little longer term view of of how we are even actively getting rid of parts of our bodies that we don't need anymore, like our our wisdom teeth is Yeah.
Shelby:Is yeah. It's sort of an interesting way to think about it. I think everybody thinks of wisdom teeth just in the context of their sort of a pain because you either have to have surgery to get rid of them or you don't, you know, you don't want them, but but there's sort of an interesting evolutionary aspect to it where our body is actively working to to get rid of those.
Jackson:Yeah. And we don't notice because we don't need them. Had we need them, really need them, people work out, figure out how to replace the you know, to add the 3rd, you know, the 3rd molar. But, again, also, we have medical intervention. It's very, very, sophisticated nowadays.
Jackson:So in terms of when we talk about evolution, it's some it's it's not natural anymore. Medical intervention from maternal, you know, for example, when I talk about evolution of large brain. K? We also relate that to evolution of pelvis, especially for, for females. Now if you compare the primates, the females, you know, the pelvis is narrow.
Jackson:The ones who are starting to walk on 2 legs like us, it's broad. And especially when the large brain evolved about 2,800,000 years ago, which is Homo habilis time. We are seeing also their pelvis, female pelvis are brought in to allow, the birth of large brain baby.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:Now imagine, so it has to be balanced. If it's too large brain, you kill the mother and the baby. So those kind of stuff has to be taken care of for years. Right. Sort of linked together.
Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. So those who could do it could balance, you know, but how many died during that time, we don't know. Today, we have a medical intervention. We can do c section and, you know, you can save the lives of both fetus and, you know, the the baby and the mother.
Jackson:Right?
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:At that time so when you talk about evolution, then evolution, technically, we have to talk about also extinction or those who are dying out naturally without saving them. So the the the nature just take care of them.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:So those who survive then will be selected better selected for their next generation to give birth to large grandkids.
Shelby:Right. Yep. But now, yeah, like you mentioned, we have have the ability to sort of circumvent some of
Jackson:Oh, yeah.
Shelby:Some of that.
Jackson:Yeah. Big time. And others now, they take a very shortcut. Just do c section. Doctors tell you, okay.
Jackson:No c sections. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Just go this side.
Jackson:You don't need to, yeah, to even to try.
Shelby:And season. A lot of your work, you had mentioned, focuses in this African rift valley. Yeah. And where specifically do you do a lot of your work?
Jackson:My work, I do, in Tanzania in a site called, Odoivay Gorge. It's on northern part of, this place is known as northern divergence zone. It's where the rift system split. It goes around. It hit the the craton rocks around there, which is the Tanzanian craton is sitting there.
Shelby:And and cratonic rocks are very old.
Jackson:Yeah. Mechanical hard, rocks.
Shelby:Yeah.
Jackson:It's about 2,000,000,000 years. And the old vials, the sedimentary rocks which where the where this material coming from is about 2,500,000. So
Shelby:Much younger.
Jackson:Much younger. So you can see 2,000,000,000 and 2,500,000. So big hiatus there in terms of rock record.
Shelby:Yeah.
Jackson:But we are we are having this quaternary because as part of this splitting or propagation of the rift system, we have a lot of volcanism. So this volcanism are the largest source of the sedimentary material we have there, including these fossils which embedded in them.
Shelby:Right. Yeah. And what what makes Olduvai Gorge such a great place for this sort of work? What makes it sort of scientifically interesting or unique?
Jackson:Oh, first of all, it's it's it's it's very an unusual place. Number 1, many people about maybe 50 years ago, people thought, oh, maybe, the work he has done. It's not a big area. It's a it's a small area comparing to other, fossiliferous sites in Africa. However, it's it has a lot of stone tools, and also the geological sequence is well dated.
Jackson:And this geological sequence, it's limited within a very short period of time. It's about 22,500,000 years until today.
Shelby:So we we know pretty much with high levels of accuracy how old these rocks are.
Jackson:We know
Shelby:And they go back 2 and a half 1000000 years, and so we can sort of correlate that with some of the other things that are in
Jackson:the area. Now the good thing about this, since we know, the stratigraphy as well, you know, laid out the time, the age. This is a radiometric dating techniques we're using to get the absolute age because of the volcanic material there. It's very, very volcanic active until today. And we are seeing, the archaeological material in terms of technology, the the the primitive technological material at the bottom layers, while the most refined, upper paleolithic or, you know, stone tool technology at the upper layers.
Jackson:And they're evolving through time, these stone tools. So you are seeing them from the primitive nature all the way to the very, very refined, or advanced technology in terms of stone.
Shelby:Right. And all in one one area.
Jackson:One area within this 2,500,000 years. And they're all canal placed into all different cultures. And this is what one of the first pioneers of the archaeologist, doctor Luis Licki and his wife, doctor Mary Licki, were able to describe one of the oldest stone tool technology in the world. And they name it after Uruguay. They give it this stone age industry all the way until today.
Jackson:It was supposed to be a field dam, but until today is known as Oduvan. So, you know, it's gonna be about changing from English to German. You know? So from Odupi to Oduvan to Oduvan. So that is a known the first human technology is known as Odeovai Industries coming from there.
Shelby:That's very cool.
Jackson:And then it is followed by some well known technology like found in Europe, like, hand axes. I'm not I'm sure if I've seen hand axes in the museum. Mhmm. And then followed by this kind of a blade stone tools like, you know, Clovis Yeah. Kind of, to the very, very recent things like eggshell beads.
Jackson:Those kind of people used for the Coruscans, pass on adornments. Yeah. We find them in the very, very upper layers. So you can see that within this small area, you have this kind of a transition stems of technology and culture. At the same time, they coincide biologically with early humans too.
Jackson:We are seeing the small brain homohabilis creature, which is the first genus homo of our own homo, was find there. Actually, homohabilis, the oldest genus of our own was described from Ordoivay Gorge. So the type specimen come from there, of the our own genus. And also the type specimens or type locality of the stone tools come from there too. And then within that area, around 1.5 or no.
Jackson:1.7, we are seeing now transition from Homo habilis to Homo erectus. Now this Homo erectus has large brain, probably almost doubling the size of Homo habilis. And considing with beta tools, which are hand access. They're larger. Very well, there's a very, very art, you know, kind of, craftsmanship, you know, put into making those tools.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:And from that, we are seeing, also the evolution of early Homo sapiens too. So within that small area.
Shelby:So this is like the prime location for you to look at some of the questions that you you set out to ask.
Jackson:You don't need to go far. Yeah. Because in other cases, we have to do like it it's like geology. If you find you work in the Badland, you have to do those composite map. You have to go here and then it correlate there, there, travel.
Jackson:But they are just one place we are seeing. So you can go deep now in terms of if you want to look at the climate change, what really forced these early humans. Why, you know, why did they change within this area? We are seeing probably if it's climate. Okay.
Jackson:We can look in that, you know, those deposits because the stratigraphy is well dated. If it was environmental change, we can see. And which, if the climate driven environment or volcanism because of tectonism, they're all in one place. Right. So that's what scientists now to look what kind of methods or technological questions which can answer this this major anthropological questions.
Shelby:Yeah. And so you're from Tanzania. And were you interested in that area and that sort of led you into this field, or were you did you become interested in paleoanthropology and then sort of circled back to Olduvag Gorge? How did you end up working in this area or in paleoanthropology more broadly?
Jackson:Yeah. So that's question a lot of people they ask me, especially Tanzanians, because they wonder, I was I lost. Why did I even end up in because very few people, you know, say don't have anything important to do than archaeology. Yes. The Likis, doctor Likis was very, very well known, very charismatic guy.
Jackson:He was born in Kenya. He was Kenyan, British. And, so he knew that, you know, area very well in East Africa. And, whenever they were working at, they're very, very famous. There'll be in radios.
Jackson:He was those kind of guy, things we are doing today like outreach. He was already started that back then.
Shelby:Yeah.
Jackson:And back then, the African countries were just people are more interested about the post independence. People are worried about many things, education, health. Doctor. Liq, he also makes some people you know? So for people, they think, so when they listen to doctor Liq, it's kind of like oh, it's a it's it's like listening to music.
Jackson:It's it's a kind of, entertainment.
Shelby:That's how people are gonna feel when they hear hear you on this episode.
Jackson:Yeah. It's it's like it's an entertainment, you know. Oh, yeah. We find another thing, you know, another ill humans of this kind. So I used to listen to that, especially in the radio and I'll I really like it.
Jackson:And they'll bring his movies and the schools. Again, the wildlife, movies of cheetah, you know, chased animals, and then there will be a leaky there. So they are very, very good. And, myself and also my uncle was, he was the head of antiquities in Tanzania. And I used to go to his house, and I stayed in his house for many times, and he had all this National Geographic, newspaper.
Jackson:So, you know, this National National Geographic Magazine, they did really that attract me to start liking the archaeology. Yeah. And, the field of archaeology was not even in Tanzania. The university, no one was teaching archaeology. So when I went to college, I was that was the the field this field was beginning.
Jackson:It was established. Actually, my uncle was involved in establishing this field at the the University of Dar es Sala where I went. And we became the among the first. So we are very, very few people in you know, people like, what are you guys doing over there? And then we have this famous site, you know, in our in our backyard.
Jackson:And I was born in Kilimanjaro. Kilimanjaro is not far from all of I go. Just about 200 miles from there. And so it was easy. Of course, it's remote.
Jackson:It's very, very remote. But, you know, we had the opportunity when I was in college to go to Uruvay because that was one of the, the program when it started. It was very, very good to, you know, the old device, that's only thing that can show us over there, including our other sites. Like, the rest of the sites were modern time, period. Right.
Jackson:Like, historical archaeology, those are the ones which are even today, they're more abundant.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:The Pleistocene, holos you know, Pliocene, those, very, very few. Was a good example, and, like, Tolle, I told you that's where the first footprints of bipedal hominids are found. So that's how I get interested. And, I went to Uruguay that time with it's a it's a it's a it's a trip. It's a school trip, like a field trip.
Jackson:And there was a group of American group who are working there, Institute of Human Origin from University of California, Berkeley. I will end up going there for my postdoc. You know, that time, some of those guys are still there. Johansson who found hominids back there. So that's when I went there.
Jackson:I was like, oh, man. I I I love this. And when I was also in college, there was another program in Kenya that was a real field school. It was run by the Harvard University and organized by Richard Leakey. Richard Leakey was a son of, you know, Louis Leakey.
Jackson:So I went to that field trip there, and that's where I met some people from Rutgers University. Some of them went up being my professors. So say, oh, yeah. You know, come to Rutgers if you want to study more about paleoanthropology. So that's where that's how I end up now to do scholarly to do a really paleoanthropology when I went to, in the graduate school in Rutgers, New Jersey.
Shelby:Yeah. So you were sort of, like, in on the ground floor both in terms of of this new program
Jackson:Yeah.
Shelby:At at your undergrad institution and also sort of, like, being in the area of this really, really incredible field site like Olduvah.
Jackson:Yeah. It's came out that way because that's why there's before there's a lot of fewer people. In our class, there were only 5 people.
Shelby:Wow. In your whole class.
Jackson:Yep. Yep. Before us, we're only 3. And all both all of 3 became professors at University of Dareslamp and, you know because, all the professors were, you know, from here, United States and, from UK and I think nora Norway. Yeah.
Jackson:Because no one was an archaeologist. So
Shelby:And now you run some field programs at Olduvai and take students here from IU. Right? So so what are those programs like? What do students get to do whenever they go to the field with you?
Jackson:Yeah. So I got this kind of, first of all, when I went to the Koobi Fora field school, the one in Kenya was run by Harvard. I realized right away, man, this is kind of stuff we're missing as a and that's why we don't have many students taking this kind of, path, trying to understand our early humans. So I had that kind of, idea on my head, you know, we we better do this, better do this. So when I came here, it become a good opportunity because this is a, education institution, provider.
Jackson:And then geology also, they're very good in the field training and the like Montana. So for them, it's not a new, new story. So like, oh, yeah. So there's a lot of support for that. So, when we started this program, which I co direct with my colleagues at Atmospheric Sciences, we merge, geology and paleoanthropology.
Jackson:So we teach geology, like sedimentology, stratigraphy, volcanism, all the tectonics, and also, geology and all those fundamentals in biological anthropology and how do we find fossil records on the landscapes. So it worked very well here because for the first time, we can combine both geology and archaeology. Most of the field schools, even when I was, the codifora, it was only archaeology. And people they just put to an excavation. That's it.
Jackson:So there we you know, in Tanzania, we really do, equally, you
Shelby:know Everything.
Jackson:Everything, you know, half half geology. And it makes sense because, all the research which are done at all of our goals, half is geology, half is at all. Because since you have this very nice stratigraphy and geological context, so you cannot just say, you know, I've when you find the fossils, we have to explain what kind of environmental context of that fossil, what kind of environment look like. So all of our project to that, we have geologists
Shelby:Right. With
Jackson:us. Yeah. So they go first, and then we you know, they say, okay. This is a good place to put a trench because, you know, don't just we cannot just guess. Yeah.
Jackson:Yeah. So they'll tell you, if you're interested in the late margin or in the lake deposits, then they'll tell you, okay.
Shelby:Here's where to go.
Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. This is where you're gonna find your stuff.
Shelby:Yeah. And I think for for students from IU that go, it's also a really great opportunity to be in a totally different landscape. I mean, this is an area that most people from from IU have never been before, and to be in this sort of environment, get to see this part of Africa, I think, is a really great opportunity.
Jackson:Yeah. And that was another reason. In addition to, education, it's also cultural exchange. You know? A lot of students, they'll tell you, oh, this is my first time outside of, you know, US Yeah.
Jackson:Yeah. Probably. And, you know, so they get there. In addition to this kind of education they got, it's an it's a cultural landscape. Different culture.
Jackson:And one of the student from here in Vienna say she has she has never been outside of United States. And for the first time, and so okay. So what intrigued I asked her, what intrigued you most? And she say the first thing she noticed, and she was scared the first day. For the first time, she realized that she was minority.
Jackson:Right? So oh, and that's how oh my god. I've never thought about this. And but she end up, you know, like the place and actually, she end up came back again, you know, to work with me, one of my projects.
Shelby:Oh, nice.
Jackson:So those are kind of things, you know. They assume, oh, it is there. It is there. It's Africa. Okay.
Jackson:You know? But they've never been there.
Shelby:Right.
Jackson:So to go in a place like that, it's far away. From here, you can you can imagine, I I call those kind of explorers. Yeah. You know, I mean, they break into a new territory. It's not like, you know, the story goes, oh, I'm going to Paris or field school in Spain or Japan, in Australia.
Jackson:Right? But for those who decide, like, Africa, not even South Africa or Egypt, in Tanzania, a lot of people that don't even know where it is, it means they know something. You know, those the at least they know the site, they've read something, and they want to go. And a lot of them, they're very, very successful and they're very, very good questions, and what also blow them away, the mind, it's the people. Yeah.
Jackson:Because at Orvay Gorge, it's a conservation area. And the community which live there, it's a pastoralist community. Their life, revolve around cattle and, you know, animal hiding. No farming. And for so, you know, they live in the small houses.
Jackson:They don't build big houses. So they haven't changed their culture over the last, you know, 200 years.
Shelby:Yeah.
Jackson:So they they really, you know, love that.
Shelby:Yeah. I think for anybody to have that perspective is so important for for, like, their experiences and also their growth as a human to to sort of get outside of Bloomington of Indiana
Jackson:Yeah.
Shelby:Of sort of this US default culture and see what it's like elsewhere. I think that's such a great opportunity that that you and the work that you do brings to our department.
Jackson:Yeah. I'm glad a lot of students who come back. They say, okay. This is it's a lifetime experience. Changed my life in terms of my mindset and, you know, respect about other people and you know?
Jackson:So everything, like, they they see how simple their culture is, how they cook, you know, even in our camp, how using the very, very simple tools, no reliable electricity, using firewood, you know, all those kind of things, no reliable Internet, you know? Yeah. But they no power, you know, it's rationing, so we use solar power and stuff like that. So it's a real camping, you know?
Shelby:Yeah. Yeah.
Jackson:It's a real camping.
Shelby:Yeah. I definitely have had had students that have been in class with me who have gone to the field with you who come back and, yes, it has been a very formative experience for them. So to finish up today, we'll do our yes, please segments. We'll each have a minute to get on a soapbox and talk passionately about something that we're interested in the moment. I'm happy to go first, or if you wanna go first.
Jackson:You'll go first.
Shelby:Okay. So I'll give you a timer. Let me know verbally in the microphone when I have 30 seconds left, when I have 15 seconds left, and when I have 5 seconds left. I will try to wrap that up.
Jackson:Alright. Ready?
Shelby:Yes. Please, let's continue to give praise to Taylor Swift and her eras tour. I know that this might be a little bit of a hot topic. I am a a fan of Taylor Swift. I went to her performance in Indianapolis over the weekend.
Shelby:It was an incredible show. I feel like I'm I'm not in terrible shape. I definitely could be in better shape. I was so tired and so sore from standing and sort of dancing for 3 hours. She literally did not take a break.
Shelby:Her dancers did not take a break. Her background singers did not take a break, and they were able to do this for 3 hours with no stops in between. It was so incredible that they were able to do that. An incredible show. The energy was immaculate.
Shelby:Vibes were on point. The age range of people there was from very young children to people that were older than I am. I don't wanna age myself here, but it was so much fun. Really, really great performance. So so grateful that I got to see it, and it sort of revitalized my enjoyment for concerts.
Shelby:I hadn't been to many concerts since COVID, and so that was a really, really great opportunity. Are you a Taylor Swift fan, Jackson?
Jackson:My daughter is.
Shelby:Yeah. I figured I figured your yeah. Your daughter might be.
Jackson:And I'm old school, so I know You know, so my my daughter love her. And she she's you know, I love I love her. She's she's a very good singer and performer. You know? Yeah.
Jackson:And every generation, they need something, you know? When we are growing up, we're we had so much stuff, you know, from Michael Jackson to all this, I mean, everywhere. Right? And today, I ask myself, what do kids watch now? You know?
Shelby:Yeah. Taylor Swift, Beyonce. You know, we've got what got a few high profile
Jackson:Beyonce too. Beyonce has been there for a long time. So Yeah. Yeah.
Shelby:Alright. This is Jackson's Yes, please.
Jackson:I'm excited. This weekend, My daughter will come home, and I promise her to and my boys to make ndizi. Ndizi is banana. It's cooked banana. It's a green banana.
Jackson:It's not a fruit. So but it's very very tasty when it's cooked, when it's green. And we cook it with the beef stew. You put vegetables in there like tomato.
Shelby:30 seconds?
Jackson:Onions, pepper, and coconut milk. And after that, you serve it with what we call kachumbari, that is a Swahili name for salad, which is tomato and onion and lemon juice.
Shelby:Excellent. So your your daughter is a big fan?
Jackson:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very nice. Well, my boys too. The hardest part is to peel that green Yeah.
Jackson:The green banana because but after peeling it and that is, it's it's a it's a local food, you know, in Tanzania. Yeah. Because we grow we grow banana. And the banana I get here, it's from Central America. We don't have the banana really from Kilimanjaro, which is really, really good.
Jackson:Yeah. But we try that, and everybody love it. Yeah.
Shelby:So you're gonna bring some in on Monday for me to try? Is that what I'm hearing?
Jackson:Yeah.
Shelby:Perfect. Excellent. I love when that happens.
Jackson:Yeah. Yeah.
Shelby:Jackson, thank you for joining us today. It has been a pleasure having you on. And for folks listening, hope we'll have you back next week whenever we have someone new that we'll get to learn about.
Jackson:Oh, thank you very much. My great pleasure to be here. I didn't know you were such a good producer.
Shelby:Don't give me too much credit till you hear this back.
Jackson:Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks.
Shelby:Earth on the Rocks is produced by Cari Metz with artwork provided by Connor Leimgruber, with technical recording managed by Kate Crum and Betsy Leija. Funding for this podcast was provided by the National Science Foundation Grant, EAR dash 2422824.
